EdFix Episode 40: From Civil Rights to Civics - Dr. Raymond Pierce on Equity in Education

 

---

 

Transcript

RAYMOND PIERCE:
How do we organize ourselves and conduct ourselves as a governable body of people who are creating these economies and employing people and doing all these things? It has to be done within some type of understanding of consciousness, of humanity. And that's where civics comes in.

MICHAEL J. FEUER:
Welcome to EdFix, your source for insights about the promise and practice of education. I'm your host, Michael Feuer. I'm the Dean of the Graduate School of Education and Human Development at the George Washington University. I am more than delighted today to be speaking with Dr. Raymond Pierce, President and CEO of the Southern Education Foundation, which is known as SEF. Raymond leads a very historic mission to advance educational opportunities for African American and other low income students primarily in the southern states.

Since becoming the head of the organization in 2018, SEF has already launched many initiatives in early childhood education, educational innovation, and has refocused and reintensified its efforts on issues related to school desegregation. Raymond also leads SEF's engagement with the US Department of Education in their Equity Assistance Center-South. Raymond came to this position after already quite an accomplished career. He's been the Dean of the School of Law at North Carolina Central University. He had served as Deputy Assistant Secretary in the US Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights. Has been a partner in the business practices at law firms such as Baker Hostetler and Nelson Mullins, and he has represented many clients in higher education. He began his career as a civil rights attorney in Little Rock, Arkansas.

Currently, Raymond serves on the Board of Visitors of the School of Education at one of our neighboring institutions here in Washington, Howard University, and is also on the Board of Advisors of the National Student Support Accelerator. He's involved in a number of activities of the National Academy of Education. He is a permanent member of the Fourth Circuit Judicial Conference and is a visiting professor of public policy and political theology at the Duke University Divinity School. Raymond has a bachelor's degree in English from Syracuse University, his law degree from Case Western, and a master's degree from Duke University Divinity School. Welcome, Raymond. And if I continued reading your bio, we wouldn't have time to talk about all the issues that we're getting together to talk about, but it's a pleasure to have you here on EdFix.

RAYMOND PIERCE:
Thank you, Michael. I'm honored to be on your program.

MICHAEL J. FEUER:
Well, look, let's get right into it if we can. I want our listeners to know more about the Southern Education Foundation. Can you give us a kind of overview, a tourist guide to the Southern Education Foundation?

RAYMOND PIERCE:
Well, thank you, Michael. I'd be more than happy to do that. You did touch upon our work, but when you think about the Southern Education Foundation, it's best to do it within context of the nation's history with regard to African Americans. The Southern Education Foundation was founded, the work actually started during the Civil War as the Northern Army was freeing enslaved individuals throughout the South, particularly in the Carolinas and white plantation owners were abandoning their lands. If you remember that Freedmen's Bureau was created, the Bureau of Abandoned Lands, Refugees and Freedman. Well, at that time, General Sherman being one of them, employed philanthropy up north to set up schools in the south. To set up schools because you have these large populations of people who were following the army in their advanced back up north, and they were not literate, they were not educated.

So it was actually the generals who thought, hey, the first thing we got to do for these people is get them educated. So schools were being set up throughout the South and coastal areas, primarily wherever the Army was going through. And that was the beginning of getting philanthropy involved in the development of education for African Americans. And of course when the war ended, it accelerated in major foundations. The Peabody Fund, George Peabody considered one of the wealthiest men in the nation at that time. In 1867, he put up a million dollars to build schools and buy books and train teachers in the south. And that was followed by John Slater. The Slater Foundation did the same thing, building schools, buying books and training teachers. And then out of Philadelphia, the Jeanes. Anna Jeanes herself considered one of the wealthiest women in the nation and an abolitionist, quite frankly, a member of the anti-slavery societies.

She put up a million dollars primarily focused on the training of black teachers. She created this army of black teachers in the South. And of course you had the Julian Rosenwald Fund out of Chicago, the [inaudible 00:06:00], which was focused primarily on building schools throughout the south. Well, all these funds, foundations eventually were consolidated in 1934, what is now the Southern Education Foundation. But prior to that consolidation of all those funds, except for the Rosenwald Fund, those funds were actually spent down. But prior to the consolidation of all those funds, these philanthropies were saying to African Americans and other leaders that we have to be able to sustain this philanthropy, can't keep paying for all this. And that began what is now today the Southern Education Foundation's engagement with policy because it was during the reconstruction period after the Civil War that African Americans and working with philanthropists up north drafted legislation in Alabama and Tennessee and Mississippi and the Carolinas and Maryland to raise taxes to pay for these books and these teachers in these schools.

So that was the invention of public education in the south. The Horace Mann movement that was up north above the Mason Dixon line didn't exist below the Mason Dixon line. It was black folks in partnership with philanthropy up north that created public education in the South. That's our legacy, the Southern Education Foundation. And of course, once those funds began to become segregated, we worked hard to fight segregation, working with folks like Thurgood Marshall and Jack Greenberg and others to prepare the cases and do the research to advance what, ultimately, was Brown versus Board of Education. In addition, the Southern Education Foundation and our previous forms were the founders of many of our historically black colleges and universities that exist today.

So we've had a long legacy of work in policy and advocacy and research, and that continues today. And as you mentioned, that focus now is focused in early childhood education manning the equity assistance center for the federal government, which gives assistance to school districts struggling with issues of race and national origin and sex and religion as it relates to the 1964 Civil Rights Act. We have a strong program and outcomes-based contracting, working to improve the efficiencies of public education through better use of public dollars for our school districts. And we've got more going on too, Michael, but I'm trying my best to be like you and be a calm leader and not take on too much. But we're quite active and it's a great and honorable legacy and I'm just honored to be the president.

MICHAEL J. FEUER:
Do you currently feel that in the communities where there is still the most need for this kind of work and progress, that there is an ongoing sense of sustainability and progress? Or are you sensing that people are in some ways, are we backsliding?

RAYMOND PIERCE:
Excellent question, Dean. I've been with the Southern Education Foundation now for six years, and I'd have to say in my first four years I began to think what you, the latter part, and that is that there is a slide. There is a lack of passion, particularly in my community, within the African American community. In addition to a lack of focus and a lack of concern in larger communities. As I said earlier, the education of African Americans and the adopting of the African American community as full citizens following the Civil War was a major policy for the entire nation. Thus, all this philanthropic work and the creation of these bureaus to heal the nation and bring us together. That lasted for a good 50, 60, 70 years following the war.

I, for a long time did not sense that sense of urgency in my first four years here at the Southern Education Foundation. However, I have been so encouraged in the last 16 months by young people, by the younger generation that are focused on these issues of equity, focused on these issues of combating lack of opportunity. It's so impressive. These young folks who were not even born when I was a civil rights attorney, they don't really know the names of the people that I have mentioned, but they know wrong when they see it, they know inequity when they see it, and they are pulling themselves together in collaboratives and associations and providing leadership.

It is so impressive and it is so encouraging, so to answer your question, yes, I'm inspired. Can there be more of this? Absolutely. Do we need more of this? Absolutely. Because the opposition, the subculture in this nation to retreat the subculture of this nation that somehow believes that the advancement of one of people who have been oppressed for centuries, that their opportunities somehow is a threat to their position. Those subcultures are being elevated today, and our policies and our politics, and so the need to oppose it is great. But yes, I see a lot of hope. I'm very encouraged. And so yes, to answer your question, I do see it, Michael.

MICHAEL J. FEUER:
Well, I think what I'm hearing is something that matters greatly to me, and I think it might actually be something that could attract even more resonance maybe than it does, which is the idea that there's a moral basis for fixing our problems of inequality and there's an economic basis, and that to the extent that as you put it, most people, let's assume are good. There is the moral imperative to correct some of the wrongs that we have inflicted over these centuries. And at the same time there's an economic rationale, which is that everybody is made better off. What's your sense of, leaving aside for a moment the tragedy of the pandemic, which in many ways so interrupted whatever might have been going on. Is it your sense that we have been making progress both on let's say, the moral imperative, more people believing in the importance of equality and in the economics of it that is more people actually advancing in life, career, income, et cetera?

RAYMOND PIERCE:
Yes. Not without its opposition. Let me touch on that economic point, Michael, if I may, and you know this history as well as I do, you know this history better than I do. Education in this nation began always as a privilege for the privileged. If you wanted your child to be educated, you had to hire a teacher, you had to pay for a teacher or send them to the local church that would teach them to read and write and add. There was no mass education. There was universal education, today what we call public education. In fact, there was opposition to it. It was opposition to raising funds to pay for education. The argument was, look, if you want your child educated, hire yourself a teacher. I'm not going to pay for it with my taxes. I'll pay taxes for the roads and the bridges in the army and maybe for the canal or the sewer system, but I'm not going to pay taxes so your child can get an education. But who can deny that this raising of taxes to pay for mass education has not been to the extreme benefit of this nation?

I mean, you can't even measure it where this nation is now because of the opportunity afforded by public education massively educating all these populations so they can read and write and learn and then add to the economy, get jobs, make businesses, build economies. This nation was made great by that, in large part by that. Well, there's been somewhat of a retrenchment of that. And that feeling that if people want that benefit, if they want that opportunity, they can pay for it themselves. If they can't pay for it, too bad for them. That's never gone away. It's never gone away, and those flames get fanned from time to time and we see them now. Fortunately, again, and I stand by it, Michael, I do believe that there is a strong culture in this nation against that, that still believes that opportunity for all is what's best for civilization, whether it's this country or any other country. I still believe that.

MICHAEL J. FEUER:
I want to now ask you something about how you think we are doing, well, let's put it this way. My sense is that there has been, for all kinds of reasons, a revival of public interest in the scope and breadth of what we are actually teaching in our K-12 system. And would you agree that we have, that the pendulum may be swinging a little bit now back in the direction of what we would call civics education with a little bit less emphasis on what was priority for several decades now, math and reading and science, are you picking up on that in your work in the South as well?

RAYMOND PIERCE:
Yes, I am, Michael. Now, of course, the attention to what we're teaching our children, the attention that gets most of the press is the attention on teaching our children tolerance. Teaching our children African American history. Or teaching our children the truth about the nation's challenges and problems. We are a great nation, but like anything that's great, it's got its problems and the United States of America has had definitely had its problems, but there's some people who don't believe that ought to be taught in our schools, and they seem to get the microphone on the bullhorn. But what I have been exposed to since I joined the Southern Education Foundation is quite a number of organizations and particularly, in the philanthropic world who are interested in civics education that yes, we can't turn our back on science, technology, engineering, and math, but that's important, particularly for this nation to be competitive.

But when you do that absent the humanities, when you do that absent civics, you do that to your own peril because we're educating people who can manage these machines and these robots and this artificial intelligence, but they can't do it with a consciousness or background within the context of humanity and responsibility, and social systems and government and what works best for our people, how do we organize ourselves and conduct ourselves as a governable body of people who are creating these economies and employing people and doing all these things? It has to be done within some type of understanding or consciousness of humanity, and that's where civics comes in because organizing humanity is a challenge. I personally believe our constitution does a very good job of organizing a democratic society that we have. I also believe that's in danger because I think there's a lowering of awareness, a lowering of the understanding, and therefore, a lack of understanding of those principles that people like you and I grew up in the school in the sixth and seventh and eighth grade, that was what the teachers taught.

You knew about checks and balances. You knew about the judicial branch and legislative branch. You knew about civic responsibility. You knew about trusting or the system and adhering to the system and having your day in court and living by the rule of law. That was just basic stuff. You didn't have to get it from the Boy Scouts, but they taught her the Boy Scout and the Girl Scouts and all these groups too. But you also got into school. You learned it when you stood up and pledged allegiance to the flag and all that. You just had this sense of civic responsibility that you just can't go off and do what you want to do, that you have a responsibility to your neighbor, your community, your state, your county, your community. You have a responsibility. I think that I'm personally convinced, quite frankly. I don't think and I'm convinced that it is sorely lacking, and that a purposeful effort needs to be made to bring that education, that focus back for the benefit of our children, our young people, and the nation as a whole.

MICHAEL J. FEUER:
But one of the things that comes up is I think an argument that has been going back for 200 or 300 years, which is whether our schools and our teachers should be emphasizing for young people how to think or what to think.

And it's been my perhaps naive illusion for some time that in the US we tended in the direction of referring schooling as a place for young people to learn skills of thinking so that they could then reach their own judgments about where they come down on certain issues. I was recently challenged on that by a historian of education who said, actually, when you look at the history, there's been much more indoctrination in our schools. Where do you think we were and where do you think we are now in that tension between what's the role of the teacher?

RAYMOND PIERCE:
Well, I mean, I'm very aware of that tension and I understand that, but the lawyer in me says, okay, how are you defining indoctrination? How are you defining that? Now, obviously, any responsible educator or educated system, system of education must, should, has to teach young people how to think. Critical thinking skills are critical, and that's on display now. Some of the things I hear coming out of people's mouths and they say, well, wait a minute, I read it. It's on the internet, therefore it must be true. And I said, well, in the old days when you did your book report, you had to list your references. Where are you getting this information from? Critical thinking, challenging the authority. What's the authority for the state? I believe schools must teach that. If you are an educator, if you are attempting to impart, you have to train people how to question it and say, okay, where's that come from? What's the reference? What's the source for that? Okay, yeah.

Now, on the other hand, how are we defining indoctrination? I would say, yeah, okay. I would agree with this individual, yes. Is pledging allegiance to the flag in some way indoctrinating individuals to allegiance to the United States? Yes. Is that a bad thing? I don't think that's a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. Teaching people, young people about our two party system here in this nation, if you can call that anymore. It's teaching this nation about our two party system. Is that indoctrinating? Perhaps. Because some people might say, well, there shouldn't be a two party, but I think that's a good thing. It's the reality.

A lot of what I hear people saying is indoctrination is just telling people the facts, the realities. Now, I do say that educators do comment on what they believe is right and wrong. They do comment on what is right and wrong, and that may, I can see as some folks thinking, some parent thinking, okay, you're crossing the line into what I believe I'll never believe I was in the second grade in some, and this is back in the 60s, and some little girl's father came in to challenge the teacher about something that we were taught in school. Okay, I get that. That's a parent's right. But I don't think that as a nation that, I strongly believe, Michael, that as a nation, any elevation of civics, and I'm using a basic understanding of civics, I don't think any elevation of a basic understanding of civics classifies as indoctrination. I don't believe that in the harmful sense of the work. I don't believe that.

MICHAEL J. FEUER:
We have a longstanding tension in the United States between individual rights and liberties that we cherish and a pursuit of something that might be called the public or the collective good. We have this ongoing. You go to the US Congress and you can see the Great Seal, E Pluribus Unum, so there is the tension.

We want to encourage a lot of differentiation, and we also have this idea of some kind of unum, some kind of a common shared set of values. When it comes to something like the big debate that we have had for 40 years, which now just culminated in another Supreme Court decision, and that's the debate about preferential admissions to higher education. I want to present to you the possibility that that whole debate is an example of a fight between these very deeply held principles, individual fairness, and the social good. 

RAYMOND PIERCE:
Well, let me start by saying this, Michael, although I do believe that there are some genuine beliefs that there are some who hold genuine beliefs, contesting policies such as affirmative action admissions or race conscious admissions for diversity purposes. Putting aside the argument for reparations, because I'm old enough to remember Bakke, and nobody when I was growing up and I was in college at the time, thought the Bakke case was about diversity. I never even heard of the word diversity within that context. We thought it was about reparations, but I digress. Although I think there is a portion of population that genuinely believes that the interests of a few are transgressing the interests of others. I think the overwhelming bulk of the argument, the contest against inclusiveness, and I'm just using that as an example, I think it's political exploitation.

I believe that those small interests are being exploited politically to advance agendas. Most Americans believe, in fairness, most students attending college will say, yeah, we should have a diverse population of students here, and that means affirmative action policies to consider other admissions criteria other than tests and things of that nature. I'm okay with that, even if it means that some people might argue, well, I'm losing my seat for that. I believe that's a high sign of political exploitation. There are some who say, let's use this as an opportunity to create an argument that serves us politically, because it plays the fears of some people that you're giving some people something for nothing.

That the greater whole is impinging upon my rights. I don't believe for a moment, Michael, that the masses of our people, this nation, are opposed to inclusiveness. I just think the bullhorn, the microphone has been allowed to be given to a small percentage of people who expand that, find other people and bring it to the court so they can use in that example and make something out of nothing. 

MICHAEL J. FEUER:
This has been a wonderful conversation, Raymond. I want to thank you. I mean, before we adjourn, could I just ask you to say two sentences about if you had answer the question, what's a nice guy like you doing in this kind of work? What was the background? Where did you develop these interests in education and public policy, in democracy, in the racial justice agenda? Give us a hint about the trajectory.

RAYMOND PIERCE:
Well, Michael, I'm a child of the 60s. I remember Dr. King. I remember James Brown, Marvin Gaye, Mercy, Mercy Me. We had to study about pollution when I was a kid, and Robert F. Kennedy inspired us. I mean, that was just the way it is. But I'd say also my parents were part of the great migration from the south to the north out of Mississippi. Mississippi to Cleveland, Ohio. And every year we'd go back down home, so to say, my mother and father would say, we're going down home. That meant back to Mississippi to visit our grandparents. And my mother's father was a teacher, and my father's mother was a teacher, and they were huge on education. My grandfather, my mother's father, was born in 1895, and I knew him well. 1895, he's born what, 40 years, 60 years at the end of Civil War. When he was a kid, he knew people who had been enslaved, probably half the population walking around at the time he was 16 in Mississippi. Half the population that he knew were people who had been enslaved.

And so he knew the importance of education. Education was everything back to the old folks, to the old folks education was everything. So every time we would go home, my mother would make us bring our report cards from school. Our grandfather had to look at our report cards. And we go from Cleveland, Ohio to Lexington, Mississippi and homeless county, Mississippi and the Delta, and bringing these report cards to my grandfather, who by the way, was instrumental in getting a Rosenwald school located in Lexington, Mississippi. You know the history of the Rosenwald schools. And he would look at them and he would correct our language, tell us to stand up straight. So education was important. It just was important. I guess growing up in the 60s, the Black nationalists, the Black Panthers, Robert F. Kennedy, and Martin Luther King and Marvin Gaye singing all these songs, it just was what it is.

Now, I wanted to be a corporate guy too. I was always interested in business, and I did eventually become a corporate attorney, but my first job out of law school was a civil rights lawyer, and I've stayed involved with it most of my career. And now I'm having the time of my life when I should be retired and chill it out somewhere. I'm having the time of my life finally on this front line of education. It's hard. It's demanding, it's exhausting at times. You have to pick your battles as to where you can fight. But I'm having fun now because as I said earlier, the encouragement I get for this younger generation of people coming behind me who feel a need to make some change, and that's going to keep me around for a little while.

MICHAEL J. FEUER:
God bless. Thank you so, so much, Raymond Pierce. Thank you for joining us on EdFix. For our listeners, we welcome you to subscribe to the EdFix Podcast, which you can do on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, iHeartRadio, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, we are there. We have a website, edfixpodcast.com, where you can download any of our episodes, and all of this is made possible because of the brilliant Touran Waters, whom I thank again, for all of her help with this. Thank you again, Raymond. We will continue the conversation.

RAYMOND PIERCE:
Well, thank you, Dr. Feuer. It's been my honor. Thank you.

---